Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions?

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Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions?

Postby Quantium G on Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:21 am

Granted, I only started playing the game back in March of this year, so I don't have total mastery in understanding every aspect of the game or how everything works, but I've been wondering this alot. And, admittedly so, it's very frustrating. Now, I'm not going to sit here and complain about the ranking system and blah blah blah, but I was just looking for some other opinions or information on this. As it currently exists, the competitive system will basically punish for you everything other then winning every single match you play. While this is pretty much impossible in a real-world, matchmaking scenario, there really doesn't seem to be any leeway in terms of loosing and the online, competitive ranking system. What do I mean by this? Let's say you just ranked up to S1D1 from B3D4. If you loose your next match, you immediately get de-ranked back to B3D4. Why? Why isn't there like 3-4 loss buffer in place, so things aren't so see-sawish? Yes, I know people will probably say that it has to do with who you play a match against, determines how much of hit you take, but still. It makes it so GD fraustrating when the excitement of moving into another new rank is completely dissolved in 5 minutes if you loose, because you KNOW you HAVE to win the next match after ranking up, otherwise, it cancels itself out. (I'm talking about major ranks, ie. Bronze to Silver, etc., not divisions).

Next, if your playing competitive during a season, and you achieve your required rank requirements, why aren't you "locked" into that rank for the rest of the season? With no possibility of de-ranking, regardless of how much you loose? While I understand that some people could abuse this by being carried by better players, more often then not, a player achieves a rank because they earned it, or spent time working up to it. So, say I rank up to Gold, which is still my goal for this season, and I complete my 10 matches at Gold to determine my overall rank within Gold. Once that happens, I should be "locked" into Gold for the rest of the reason, or any other rank until the Season reset takes place. This would provide a tremendous relief because, at where I'm at now, probably 95% of my gametime is spent just trying to get out of Bronze. (Been doing 3v3 mostly, wisened up, currently just doing 2v2). This would provide so much more room for player improvement, as your consistently playing against better skilled players, so you would naturally improve, instead of wasting 90% of your time, playing with frickin' clowns, HOPING to rank back out of Bronze, and get back to playing against people who help you improve, and aren't just casual playing around in competitive? The biggest causality of this type of system, occurred to me about 3 weeks ago, when in 36 hours, I lost.......37? matches IN..A...ROW. Now, are you trying to tell me, that after ranking up to S2D2, I suddenly forgot how to play for 2 days? Thus, de-ranking me ALL the way back down to B2D2? Do you see how a "locked" rank would've eliminated this? Now, it's "back to the drawing boards" trying to rank BACK out of Bronze AGAIN.

The game punishes you too much. Abandon a match? Punished. Teammates leave, and the other team is up by 4-6, so you have no way of winning? Punished for leaving a match you probably aren't going to win. Server disconnect and you can't re-connect before the match ends? Punished. Game crashes and you can't re-connect in time? Punished. Get stuck with un-ranked players when your Silver, meaning unless you win the whole game by yourself, your probably going to loose? Punished. And yes, I understand the "sportsmanship" of leaving a match before it ends, but let's be honest. If your getting shutdown by another team by 6+ points, and it's 30 seconds to go? Guess what? Your not going to win. SO WHY DOES THE GAME PUNISH YOU FOR LEAVING? The match is over. As if facing a loss that big isn't annoying enough, the game is like "Yep, either your going to take the loss and de-rank, or if you leave, you'll probably get a temp. ban and get de-ranked regardless". WTF? If the penalities for leaving a match early are so severe and inescapable, why even have or give the player the ability to do so? Either way, it counts against you. Yes, I'm still just a beginner, but I try to improve everytime I play, and I don't like leaving matches, but, well.....you know. I don't have to explain that.

I'm not trying to sound as if things should be changed in the way the ranking system works, just to suit me. I don't have any problem with how it currently works, but let's be honest, there's room for improvements that would help almost any player. And this doesn't really apply to skilled players at higher levels, Platinum+, etc. But it starts to get, almost futile? Because, you end up spending literally 90% of a season just beboping back and forth between the bottom 2 tiers. Does playing 1v1, really the only way to subvert this? Or just 2v2? Thanks for any information. Not trying to sound stupid, still learning, but just have questions.
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby Doomstrike on Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:37 am

You Generally have a buffer, when you div up into a new rank like silver to gold you usually land in gold div 2. You have to move a chunk into the next rank to usually avoid what you are talking about. Generally the game will give you a 2 loss bufffer before demoting you. A lot of that depends also on how many games you have played.

The ranks in this game just give you a visual representation of your MMR which is what you get matched with to play online. So in this case no you should not be locked because like you mentioned if you lost 37 games in a row the rank you achived wasn't something you could maintain and the system was correcting itself. Remeber this system isn't a ladder for you to climb above ranked people. If this was a solo game maybe locking you in ranks would be ok but since this is a team based game it's not fair to force someone to play with you if say you climbed to diamond or smurfed to a rank you don't belong in only to suck and lose the next 500 games causing how many other players to have to pay for you being in the wrong ranks. There are already enough posts about people being carried or so and so doesn't belong in x rank. Locking people in would be a disaster.

Lastly don't forget once you have your rewards just enjoy life it doesn't matter what rank you are in, what matters is good and fun matches. It doesn't matter if you are diamond or bronze as long as it's a good match. The other thing I recommend is unranked. Play, don't quit and your unranked MMR will go up to the point where 90% of the time you will get full games played with no one jumping in and out and it's stress free as there is no rank or penalty. For example I have like maybe 200 games played in ranked this season and probably like 500 in unranked. I much more enjoy unranked and only play ranked with 2 or 3 people that insist on it because there unranked mmr is terrible compaired to ranked
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby Scyonite on Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:57 am

When nothing works - Get silly, but be respectful. Be happy you got matched against me, giving you room to improve!
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby NoOne-NBA on Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:54 am

This is a RANKING system, not a progression system.

The game RANKS you at whatever point you are currently winning some, and losing some.
That isn't a set point, that can just be locked down.
Your actual skill will vary up and down, and your rank should reflect those fluctuations.

If you think you deserve a higher rank than you currently have...WIN MORE, and prove it.
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby Spiffers on Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:26 am

I'm a little put off by some of the things you're quoting as punshments - Yes, if you abandon a game, you should be punished. ESPECIALLY since in both situations you put scores in for, they were 2 goal games. Those games can turn around in 10 seconds with a couple lucky kickoffs. Or in the 4-6 game... are you saying you've left after one of your teammates left, then got punished for it? That shouldn't be the case. I will agree that it's frustrating when you do get into a game where there's no hope of winning (a difference of over 4 goals with under a minute left, for sure), and your teammates make you stick it out. But guess what - it's a minute. If you think that's bad, go play MoBAs, where if someone wants to lock you into a game, it could be for 5, 10, 15 minutes... heck, it can be even longer.

I will give one opinion - I do feel like if everyone has cast a forfeit vote at some point in the game, either the game should refresh all forfeit votes, or should then allow players to leave the match from then on. It doesn't make sense to lock players into a match that, at some point, they all agreed to leave.

As for your other points - I don't have more to add than those above me, so I'll leave that with them
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby Quantium G on Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:44 am

Thanks for all the replies. Good information. NBA, it's not that I think I deserve a higher rank then I am, I'm still a beginner. I was just saying that I wished the win/loss, up-rank/de-rank wasn't so all over the place? Because it's not like someone can suddenly or overtime, get worse as a player, is it? Logically, overtime, you would expect to see gradual, if not SOME improvement?
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby Scyonite on Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:52 am

You gotta see it like this: most matches give at most +15 MMR. GC is for 2v2 and 3v3 standard at around 1.5k MMR and pros cap out at around 2k. One match is not more important than 1% of the overall scale. Surely, if you're 5% below or above your actual level you'll start seeing matches become a bit more decided by either you or the opponent team. The more matches you play, the better matchmaking and the ranked system will be able to determine your rank. Surely one undeserved overtime goal is kind of a monkey wrench, but if you play 20 more games during that day, this one overtime is likely not going to have any impact on your final rank, given that you're not affected mentally by this match. But I hear you in saying the overall process could be less punishing, much like the video I linked explains too.
When nothing works - Get silly, but be respectful. Be happy you got matched against me, giving you room to improve!
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby NoOne-NBA on Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:48 am

Quantium G wrote:Because it's not like someone can suddenly or overtime, get worse as a player, is it? Logically, overtime, you would expect to see gradual, if not SOME improvement?

The timing in Rocket League is absolutely a perishable skill.

If you don't practice daily, your skill level will drop.
Most of those drops are temporary, but you still don't want to be matched up with people who are playing at the level you USED TO play at, when you're not at that level currently.
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby Midremit on Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:37 am

Quantium G wrote:Thanks for all the replies. Good information. NBA, it's not that I think I deserve a higher rank then I am, I'm still a beginner. I was just saying that I wished the win/loss, up-rank/de-rank wasn't so all over the place? Because it's not like someone can suddenly or overtime, get worse as a player, is it? Logically, overtime, you would expect to see gradual, if not SOME improvement?


I haven't read everything in this thread, but I think you could do with hiding your rank switches (I think this is possible ) it's not that the game punishes you hard, it's a psychological thing of you giving value to a rank, while it doesn't matter at all when your just started. The reason you get flung from one rank to another is because you haven't played a lot of games.

I always look at my seasonal improvement, a - roughly - 3 month interval. The reason being the one you said, that people don't get worse/better immediately.

Enjoy playing!



Edit: please never abandon games. With enough determination and in time skill you'll do incredible comebacks. Best feeling you can get out of this game when it happens imo.
Not saying gg after a game?
Despicable.

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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby xl biz lx on Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:05 am

Doomstrike wrote:The other thing I recommend is unranked. Play, don't quit and your unranked MMR will go up to the point where 90% of the time you will get full games played with no one jumping in and out and it's stress free as there is no rank or penalty. For example I have like maybe 200 games played in ranked this season and probably like 500 in unranked. I much more enjoy unranked and only play ranked with 2 or 3 people that insist on it because there unranked mmr is terrible compaired to ranked


I have to say that this is incorrect. I have about 6k or more matches played between ranked and casual. I still get put into games that have an overwhelming score to try and come back from or there is less that 90 secs remaining. ALL THE TIME. I never quit games, even if there is 34 secs left when I load in. Why? So my 'mmr' doesnt tank because i quit. Yet i get matched with players that love to quit as soon as they think they cannot win, ranked and casual. This game does not do anything close to a decent job of matching casual players together at all. If it does for you, you are an exception.
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby Spiffers on Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:41 pm

xl biz lx wrote:
Doomstrike wrote:The other thing I recommend is unranked. Play, don't quit and your unranked MMR will go up to the point where 90% of the time you will get full games played with no one jumping in and out and it's stress free as there is no rank or penalty. For example I have like maybe 200 games played in ranked this season and probably like 500 in unranked. I much more enjoy unranked and only play ranked with 2 or 3 people that insist on it because there unranked mmr is terrible compaired to ranked


I have to say that this is incorrect. I have about 6k or more matches played between ranked and casual. I still get put into games that have an overwhelming score to try and come back from or there is less that 90 secs remaining. ALL THE TIME. I never quit games, even if there is 34 secs left when I load in. Why? So my 'mmr' doesnt tank because i quit. Yet i get matched with players that love to quit as soon as they think they cannot win, ranked and casual. This game does not do anything close to a decent job of matching casual players together at all. If it does for you, you are an exception.


The first game you play in a set isn't indicative of the matchmaking skill - that's just the system trying to put non-bots into games. We're talking about trying to stay in unranked for a while so you're there from the start. Those games that are hugely one-sided are often caused BECAUSE people don't give them a chance - a person or 2 leaves after a couple goals, and then that team never gets back to 3 players for more than 15 seconds at a time. Don't take the score of a game as a measure of how good the next game may be with the people already in that match.
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby NoOne-NBA on Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:58 pm

Spiffers wrote:The first game you play in a set isn't indicative of the matchmaking skill...

I would elaborate on that by pointing out that any match where the matchmaking system has to find six random people, and throw them onto teams, will likely be less balanced than a match where five people have stayed from the previous match, and the matchmaker only has to find ONE person to fill the rosters out.
It's just much easier for the matchmaker to find that ONE perfect person, than it is for it to find SIX.
From my personal experience, those follow-up matches have often been some of the best matches I've played in this game.
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby Quantium G on Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:09 pm

Well, it turns out, since I originally posted the topic, I've proven my own theory TRUE, as playing just 2v2 is a MASSIVE improvement in terms of progression, and actually winning because you play good. :) WHY I didn't figure this out 2 months ago, I don't know. :P
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby xl biz lx on Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:46 pm

Spiffers wrote:
xl biz lx wrote:
Doomstrike wrote:The other thing I recommend is unranked. Play, don't quit and your unranked MMR will go up to the point where 90% of the time you will get full games played with no one jumping in and out and it's stress free as there is no rank or penalty. For example I have like maybe 200 games played in ranked this season and probably like 500 in unranked. I much more enjoy unranked and only play ranked with 2 or 3 people that insist on it because there unranked mmr is terrible compaired to ranked


I have to say that this is incorrect. I have about 6k or more matches played between ranked and casual. I still get put into games that have an overwhelming score to try and come back from or there is less that 90 secs remaining. ALL THE TIME. I never quit games, even if there is 34 secs left when I load in. Why? So my 'mmr' doesnt tank because i quit. Yet i get matched with players that love to quit as soon as they think they cannot win, ranked and casual. This game does not do anything close to a decent job of matching casual players together at all. If it does for you, you are an exception.


The first game you play in a set isn't indicative of the matchmaking skill - that's just the system trying to put non-bots into games. We're talking about trying to stay in unranked for a while so you're there from the start. Those games that are hugely one-sided are often caused BECAUSE people don't give them a chance - a person or 2 leaves after a couple goals, and then that team never gets back to 3 players for more than 15 seconds at a time. Don't take the score of a game as a measure of how good the next game may be with the people already in that match.


This only works if you stay in the lobby and the others as well. Most of the time people quit and search for another game, I do often because I don't want to play with the people I just played with or I hope I get a different game mode the next match. The most common mode to get dropped in during progress is standard. All they need to do is set the game to not bring in someone searching for a session if say, more than a minute or two have passed. I don't care if I win or lose casual matches, but don't throw me in a game that I have no chance at having any fun trying to win when there is no chance. Also, don't throw me in just as everyone quit with time remaining so I get the loss just as it makes the game auto forfeit because all players have left. These are the biggest complaints I have about casual, they shouldn't be hard to fix and make QOL improvements in casual matches.
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby littlebigleg on Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:59 am

hitting a rank can be nice ,but at the end of the day it means nowt,i play with lots of folks an nobody wears there rewards,If you play for fun,you will rank up if you are enjoying youself,Stop caring about such nonsense
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby Thunderation on Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:28 am

Many players are convinced that they win more than lose - I thought so too. Then I started to write down the victories and defeats on the card - the results surprised me
Well - different items and Crates in my life I knew, but one thing I'm sure. The best memories I have from Rocket League crates, crates are simple and enjoyable. The situation is different from the Rocket League items. Hard work and a lot of work, so why would people play Rocket League only for items? Humanity has forgotten about the harmony and rocket league crates that bring with it. They buy for the power, buy and buy items will be, because today's world looks like this.
Most Expensive Rocket League items :-)
Gentlemen, this is war, and you are soldiers - is this a bucket?
I'm asking, is this a bucket?
No! This is Rocket League items and Rocket League crates, and here you can play on PS4 and trade on PC and Xbox - although the best Rocket League trading Xbox.
Think about it before you fall asleep, the world is supposed to look like this - you open a zephyr crate and buy items.
Buy Rocket League items
Last edited by Thunderation on Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby sumatchi on Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:00 pm

Play more games and the ranking system will get more consistent with your skill level. 10 gamesample size = more change per loss/win. 100-500 ranked game sample size = different story. Also you will run into games where you will be up 5-6 points and they will surrender, or one of the enemies disconnects and you get a free win. In the grand scheme of games it all evens out
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby Thyriel on Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:29 am

What bothers me way more then being deranked after loosing one game (and yes it's more like 2-3 games after rank (not division) up) are, in my opinion, the two biggest problems of ranked games since ages:

1) Especially in lower leagues (yes i just suck in 1v1) you have a significant high amount of unranked but far better players that still have a rather big impact on your MMR when loosing. I'm fine that you need to play against unranked (how else would it work to rank them) but there where quite a few moments where i could have killed the game when you have a winning streak, being 1 win away from ranking up and then loose three times in a row against unranked players far above your skilllevel.
Either completely remove MMR reduction when loosing against unranked players or let them finish their 10 games and then reduce MMR afterwards only if they are roughly the same skilllevel as you where when facing them.


2) Groups with low & high ranks: I really don't get it why such a group gets opponents around their average MMR. First: There needs to be a limit on how far MMRs can be apart to group at all together in ranked games. I mean i've seen Champion + bronze being put into a gold league game. Total nonsense.
And secondly: IF people decide to group with lower ranks, it should be their problem and not our problem, so just let them play against their highest MMR instead average.
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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby Midremit on Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:16 am

Thyriel wrote:2) Groups with low & high ranks: I really don't get it why such a group gets opponents around their average MMR. First: There needs to be a limit on how far MMRs can be apart to group at all together in ranked games. I mean i've seen Champion + bronze being put into a gold league game. Total nonsense.
And secondly: IF people decide to group with lower ranks, it should be their problem and not our problem, so just let them play against their highest MMR instead average.


Idk about this.

I've teamed up a few times with a real life friend who is approx. d1 div2 in doubles, and I was constantly bouncing between c2d1 and c2d3.
The system tended to put us up against c1+c2 when I was d2d3, and d3+c1 when I was c2d1.

I'd have a guess that they use weighted average mmr values to matchmake teams, although champion and bronze seems ridiculous indeed.
Not saying gg after a game?
Despicable.

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Re: Why does this game punish you so much? Ranking Questions

Postby NoOne-NBA on Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:08 am

Thyriel wrote:I really don't get it why such a group gets opponents around their average MMR. First: There needs to be a limit on how far MMRs can be apart to group at all together in ranked games. I mean i've seen Champion + bronze being put into a gold league game. Total nonsense.
And secondly: IF people decide to group with lower ranks, it should be their problem and not our problem, so just let them play against their highest MMR instead average.

This is an issue Psyonix has addressed repeatedly, and at great length.
Their system TRIES to find another split-skill team, matching the make-up of your own, when you enter the queues as such.
If it can't find another team with a similar make-up, THEN it looks for solo players to stick into the match.

At launch, Psyonix was using a straight average MMR, for such matchups.
While examining the results of that system, in response to solo players whining about how unfair it was to face teams, Psyonix found, unsurprisingly, that split skill teams had an advantage in those games, due to familiarity and communications.

Psyonix' first attempt to fix this DID take your "highest MMR" suggestion, when matching solo players to teams.
That was an even bigger disaster than the original system.
Solo players had a HUGE advantage in those games because the low player on the team couldn't compete with his higher level opponent in these matches, and the split-skill teams couldn't match the teamwork displayed by the solo team, leading to slaughters.

Having tried both ends of the spectrum, Psyonix switched to a hybrid approach.
They now use average MMR, but have tweaked the gap between the teams such that the solo players still have an MMR advantage in most of those matches, but not as large as it was under the "both players at the higher player's MMR" system.
Psyonix has tweaked the gap to FORCE as close to a 50/50 win ratio as possible.

That doesn't mean that everyone will see those results, on an individual basis, but rather that things will even themselves out, with respect to the player base as a whole.
There are still a bunch of people on here who complain about the "fairness" of the current system because they "always lose to teams".
Those people are offset by people like myself however.
I tend to win most of my matches while playing solo, and lose most of them when teaming with friends, regardless of our rankings.

What I tend to get most of the time, and this is the important part, are really good matches.
It's uncommon for me to spend an evening playing, and get more than a handful of matches that aren't decided by a point or two, regardless of who I'm teamed with, or whether I'm playing solo.
When I play 2s, on a pre-made double Plat team, we love facing legitimate Diamond/Gold teams because our teamwork will generally take the Diamond guy out of the match, leaving us with 1v1 attacks against the Gold guy.
We tend to win more of those, than we do matchups against other Plat/Plat teams.
When you throw me onto a solo double Plat team, the results get even worse for the split skill teams because I get paired with a higher level Plat player than I would playing on a pre-made team.
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